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Author
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Topic: Original Sonic Demos!
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kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 02, 2006 12:21 AM
  
Update: New Isometric demo added (see below in same post)Howdy. Here are two of three demos I put together back in 1995 to help pitch the project. The following were pitched to execs and the Sonic Team. I had an Amiga 3000, DeluxePaint Animator and 4 weeks for both - to build the enemies, animate everything, design the layout, make the HUD, animate that based on the animations... I didn't sleep much. 3mb Sonic Demo 1 4mb Sonic Demo 2 The music playing inspired me to create both demos and was played as their soundtrack. It's from the "Sonic the Hedgehog Boom" CD soundtrack, track 2 called "Stardust Speedway-Bad Future." That music fits so perfectly for me - WOO - makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up! Weeeeeee!!! These demos were designed to show Sonic in 3D for the very first time. It was supposed to be playful, fun and colorful. The following demo was created to test basic environment, shadow and camera issues if we tried a rotating, isometric world for Sonic: 394K Isometric Test Enjoy  [edited January 16, 2006 by kurisu] IP: 24.126.160.81 |
Rlan
unregistered
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posted January 02, 2006 01:51 AM
Awesome stuff. That certainly looks old!  I do have to wonder though, these videos you've been releasing - Are you actually running the programs / videos and making the GIFs, or is that how you originally created them? I'm not sure, considering the tech you had back then And it's nice to see that somehow Trilldrill made it's way all through development [edited January 02, 2006 by Rlan] IP: 202.7.183.130 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 02, 2006 02:02 AM
Hi Rlan, thanks for taking a peek ...when I created them, I had them as DA anim files, and I had the sense to save DA with them... so uncovering a bunch of backup disks (CD's that I'd backed up from floppy disks, etc.) gave me the program with which I saved out individual files... then used ImageReady to compose the .gif file that you see. The music was embedded in the .html file... I tried making the .gifs I've been working with as .avi files... but the memory increase was amazing and ridiculous (400K gif = 60Mb avi!!!)... so to save space, you know the rest. IP: 24.126.160.81 |
hxc
Member
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posted January 02, 2006 02:03 AM
The AVIs could be compressed, I'll see if I can make nice ones out of the gifs for ya Or not, I can't convert the gifs to avi to compress with vDub  [edited January 02, 2006 by hxc] IP: 88.111.174.63 |
Rlan
unregistered
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posted January 02, 2006 03:33 AM
Animation files like the original Sonic X-Treme sprites were? Would that also mean that you originally had them at 256 colours too? If that's the case, it's no problem IP: 202.7.183.130 |
ICEknight
unregistered
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posted January 02, 2006 08:06 AM
Wow, great stuff!Any chances of releasing the original (compressed if they're too big) video files, for research purposes? Even if the old viewer doesn't work in today's machines, I'm sure somebody will eventually reverse-engineer the format. I'm asking because when Tom Payne sent me his Sonic 2 enemy graphics straight from SEGA's Digitizer machines, there was still some hidden info within the files, such as the palettes that were used. Plus, it would be nice to see these videos the way they were originally intended to be seen, in terms of resolution, colors, sound(?), etc.
Either way, thanks a bunch for releasing these things.
[edited January 02, 2006 by ICEknight] IP: 62.175.29.8 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 02, 2006 08:47 AM
I feel old. lolDeluxepaint Animator (DA) only works with 8-bit palettized graphics and exports .PCX files... ImageReady works with 8-bit palettized .GIF files... TADA! ...the original palettes I set up are intact - just take a look - you'll need some application that can view them. Every file I'm releasing is in its original form - palette and pixel aspect ratio... believe me - do you think I would keep that hideous bg colors for those Tiara pics? I would love to update them... but for purposes of "unveiling what was made," I'm keeping them as is - palettes, sizes and hideous colors and all. Here's the process I employed to create this demo: I'd already designed some enemies (I'll scan the pictures of most of the enemies - the shooting one I made up on the fly, but the others were planned beforehand on paper) and went ahead and modeled those in 3D using an Amiga 3000 and the software Imagine 3.0. I'd already modeled Sonic for use in a demo prior to this one (a bonus round design concept of Michael Kosaka's). The entire rendered scene was blocked out so it had a small view rectangle so that the rest of the space would be filled in with a HUD I'd design/draw later. I designed a simple 3D playground and planned a route for Sonic to run, coming up with environmental hazards (like the spike plate, the pumping platform, etc.) along the way. I had to tweak Sonic's orientation each frame, too. (oy) Since I was working with 8-bit (256 colors), I needed to have the 3D images from the Imagine renders to mesh with the 2D HUD I created in DeluxePaint Animator... so I limited the color output of the renders to something like 192 or something (I can check if anyone's interested at work with ImageReady - or you can, just load it and you'll see the palette) and used the remaining 64 or so colors to draw the HUD. Then I manually updated each frame of the HUD to match what was going on in the game window. I even updated the ring counter graphic and number every time Sonic ran over a ring! Granted, all the 3D was flat-shaded and didn't/doesn't look that impressive, but I think the cleanliness and colors keep it charming in a simple way. Overall, it still shows some basics of Sonic moving around in 3D. This particular demo didn't have any speed sections that have always been a hallmark of the Sonic games, but that's what other demos were for. The assumption was that if we could visualize the slower, more tediuos gameplay, we could definitely have fast sections that went by in a blur... hxc - Believe me, I spent over an hour on New Year's eve downloading, installing a whole bunch of gif>avi converters and attempted to convert the .gif animations I was putting together... to no avail. Every converted file was corrupt with digital garbage until 1 shareware app that actually did it properly... but then the file size was HUGE (as in the example I listed with the 60Mb avi file derived from this demo that started that day as a 400K gif file). That's just lame. So if anybody can think of a small video format that I can convert these to, I'll add sound to them (and specify what sound was added, especially if it isn't something I composed). ICEknight - the "original" file formats were not like the Sonic 2 original file formats... we worked with 8-bit .PCX files until we started using Photoshop, and then .PSD files were used (about a year into the project or later). BTW, you're very welcome - it's my pleasure to finally share this stuff that's been dormant and forgotten about for so many years. This was the project from hell on which I suffered greatly, and the final blow was having it cancelled, so having an interested audience in what "could have been" is fantastic! ...so thank YOU! IP: 24.126.160.81 |
hxc
Member
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posted January 02, 2006 09:50 AM
Mind if you could say what shareware app that was? I could probably quite easily convert it then compress it down with vDub by encoding it as XviD or DviXIP: 88.111.174.63 |
SANiK
Moderator
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posted January 02, 2006 12:58 PM
OMG =OThat demo is like an anthem for me now
Wow! I can see how the gameplay would of been frustrating due to platforms and camera angle, but I don't care!
It's still awesome none the less =O Some tech facts:
The resolution is 320x200
That's called "Mode 13h" on PC's =P The highest resolution VGA cards supported at the time was 640x480 but with a 16 color palette "Someone" later found that by messing with the data sent to the VGA card, mode-x could be entered which allowed one to enter 320x240 which would give square pixels unlike 320x200 Ahem, enough of my tech chatter
kurisu, the model looks great btw
I was doubtful at first from first glance, but when the camera zoomed in on it, it looks swell I wish yah luck on finding the model (and don't give yourself a hard time if you can't convert it to a known format, I can deal with un-decoded binary formats as long as they aren't compressed)
[edited January 02, 2006 by SANiK] IP: 71.250.112.130 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 02, 2006 01:49 PM
hxc - Sure, just as soon as I get to work (I called in sick today - been sick the last few days, actually, which is why I could post so much!). I installed it there and wouldn't remember which one until I find it. There's a procedure to that bypasses the watermark the program installs on the output, too - remind me to mention that. If we had a system to get smaller file sizes with sound, that would be great, hxc! SANiK - Classic! Yes, you are correct, 320x200 was also the resolution of DeluxePaint Animator... so that's why I used it for so long. I took awhile to get acclimated to Photoshop, because it wasn't 8-bit and couldn't support animation... so I stayed in the "dark ages" for more years than I should have. Ofer and Chris Coffin helped push me into the Photoshop world. You're right about the gameplay being frustrating if you actually had to play this. It's slow, the layout stinks and it's riddled with other problems (no way the enemies would be that packed together), etc. but it still had a vibe that was appealing enough to continue. Thanks for the compliments, btw. I really did work my tail off to make it. Oh, btw, good that you looked at the model when it zoomed in... but... alas this magician must reveal how he did his magic trick... I touched up the visuals manually in DeluxePaint Animator... if you watch it again, you'll see the detail "rez in"... and that's me cheating with 2D! The Sonic model stinks... but it's probably the most efficient use of polygons you'll ever see, baby! lol (that's me impersonating modesty) ...I built 3D models like I did 2D graphics, as efficiently as possible (learned that from some of the most amazing 2D artists at Cinemaware)... and for this demo, the fewer the overall polys, the faster I could work with the wireframes - and faster to render the flat-shaded output. BTW, another reason for the flat-shaded final output choice was to keep the look clean. Knowing that I would need to work with 256 colors, and knowing that the HUD was the only element I could control exactly how many colors and how they were used... I chose to not have shadows or shading. Honestly I think it reads better without them. Anywho, I'll see if I can find the models and let you know... IP: 24.126.160.81 |
SANiK
Moderator
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posted January 02, 2006 02:24 PM
LOL, you sly dog =3
Yes, I still want the model(s) though since they're still part of history ^_^IP: 71.250.112.130 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 02, 2006 04:43 PM
lol - you know I looked at the demo again... it's actually not touched up that much... I confused that with the 2nd demo (I'll post that in the next day or two). That's much easier to tell...IP: 24.126.160.81 |
Keith Hemari
unregistered
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posted January 02, 2006 08:24 PM
*pops over from Simon Wai's site*Verrrrry coooool. Hey, I recognize some of those badniks! Some of those enemies look like the baddies from here. I can immediately identify Dynobot and Trilldrill. Or their predecessors at any rate. I can't wait for more! I've been wondering about this game since I saw an ad for it in a magazine (which I still have XD) back when I was in elementary school. It's great to finally have some answers! IP: 65.185.143.72 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 02, 2006 08:53 PM
Hi Keith - welcome and thanks for the enthusiasm! Yes, a few of those badniks ended up getting refinished or recreated by Ross Harris to make those sprites. A few didn't, and looking at them now, it's a shame... I like the little waddly armadillo shooter guy... he was designed to roll into a ball (but never did, rest his soul... *pout*). IP: 24.126.160.81 |
Keith Hemari
unregistered
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posted January 03, 2006 09:56 PM
No, Thank you for letting us ask all our silly fan questions XD quote:
A few didn't, and looking at them now, it's a shame... I like the little waddly armadillo shooter guy... he was designed to roll into a ball (but never did, rest his soul... *pout*).
Yeah, that one caught my eye. That would've been pretty cool. Hey, on the topic of the baddies: Do you recall what would happen after Sonic smashed one? In the original games, after Sonic bashed a badnik, it exploded and a little animal came hopping out. Trivial question, but something I was wondering about IP: 65.185.143.72 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 04, 2006 07:21 AM
Good question! Xtreme's answer to the little furry animals inside a badnik that got freed when you killed the badnik was... little bean-like characters called "Mips!" Originally designed by Michael Kosaka, these little guys would bounce around like the furries and be freed just as their predecessors. Much later on in the project, Yasuhara Hirokazu injected a little more gameplay by requiring a minimum number of Mips to be rescued to allow access to certain "gates" in the game. A little background info on the Mips... like why the name "Mips," anyway? Good question, Chris!  ...and the answer lies in the very first storyline... which is included in the SXC! Stay tuned! [edited January 04, 2006 by kurisu] IP: 24.126.160.81 |
Keith Hemari
unregistered
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posted January 04, 2006 08:51 AM
quote:
Good question! Xtreme's answer to the little furry animals inside a badnik that got freed when you killed the badnik was... little bean-like characters called "Mips!"
Mips? ... that sounds familiar. I know I've heard that name before. Hmmm.. *goes to search the research sites* Man, this is a eye opener and no mistake! I look forward to the full story. IP: 65.185.143.72 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 04, 2006 09:31 AM
Me too, Keith, me too! (this is a lot of work sifting through, organizing, cleaning up, scanning, retyping, blah blah blah... *passes out*)hxc - Here's that shareware app that converts .gif's to .avi's: http://www.downloadjunction.com/product/store/6878/ or http://www.tomdownload.com/multimedia_design/animation/ OPEN the gif file then EXPORT the avi... (brain surgery, I know, but...) IP: 66.77.144.10 |
LocalH
unregistered
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posted January 04, 2006 04:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Keith Hemari:
Mips? ... that sounds familiar. I know I've heard that name before. Hmmm.. *goes to search the research sites*Man, this is a eye opener and no mistake! I look forward to the full story.
It's offtopic, but Mips may be familiar because I'm pretty sure that's close to the name of the little rabbit in Mario 64. It's also a benchmarking acronym standing for Million Instructions Per Second.[edited January 04, 2006 by LocalH] IP: 71.80.20.45 |
drak
unregistered
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posted January 06, 2006 08:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LocalH:
It's offtopic, but Mips may be familiar because I'm pretty sure that's close to the name of the little rabbit in Mario 64. It's also a benchmarking acronym standing for Million Instructions Per Second.
It's not just close, that is indeed the Mario 64 rabbit's name. And it's named after that benchmarking acronym, too, if I recall :< The rabbit model was used for some kinda testing during the N64's development and they decided to use him later on in Mario 64... or something like that. [edited January 06, 2006 by drak] IP: 69.214.53.241 |
Keith Hemari
unregistered
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posted January 06, 2006 09:12 PM
actually this page was what I was thinking of.IP: 65.185.143.72 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 07, 2006 01:45 AM
LocalH - On the contrary - quite on topic... (my philosophy is... a topic starts and will inevitably go off on tangents... and that's okay!) Mips were named for exactly those reasons... they're the replacement for the little furries based on Michael Kosaka's first storyline in "Micro Mobius" (more in the SXC)drak - Silly Wabbit... Mips are for kids! Keith - Oo - cool link! Danke... IP: 24.126.160.81 |
PKGINGO
unregistered
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posted January 07, 2006 11:46 AM
hxc, heres a dialup version of the demo compressed with mp3 and wmv9. Its about 2.5 megs and I cropped and slightly edited the stardust mp3 for the video. Nothing great, but it fits quite nicely . If you need an HQ version in avi form (xvid/mp3) let me know and Ill try to gmail or something. That version is ~9.28MB.
http://home.comcast.net/~ruralclass/sonic2.avi [edited January 07, 2006 by PKGINGO] IP: 71.194.225.112 |
SANiK
Moderator
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posted January 07, 2006 01:56 PM
Argh, AVIs lose a lot of qualityIt's better to stick to GIFs in my opinion =/ IP: 71.250.112.130 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 07, 2006 02:46 PM
PKGINGO - That's so cool! It's nice to have a quick download and get a glimpse of the whole experience. Thanks SANiK - Yes, the gif file is smaller and higher quality for sure, but having the music play with it is nice for the bigger "experience." One of these days, we'll figure out the best way to present all this stuff and fix it accordingly... IP: 24.126.160.81 |
LocalH
unregistered
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posted January 07, 2006 03:16 PM
Perhaps the best way to present the GIF with music would be within a Flash document?IP: 71.80.20.45 |
H Hog
unregistered
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posted January 07, 2006 03:22 PM
How 'bout a YTMND site. *rofl*IP: 62.194.17.202 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 07, 2006 11:14 PM
LocalH - I think you may have something there! I don't have Flash though H Hog - lol! IP: 24.126.160.81 |
kurisu
Administrator
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posted January 09, 2006 03:00 PM
Demo 2 added in original post of this thread... IP: 66.77.144.10 |
hxc
Member
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posted January 09, 2006 03:05 PM
Now that. Seriously kicks ass! I love the level design!IP: 88.111.150.88 |
Borisz
unregistered
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posted January 09, 2006 03:14 PM
Looks like a combination of the Knuckles Chaotix special stages on the 32x and Bug! on the Saturn. Awesome.IP: 84.0.149.247 |
Keith Hemari
unregistered
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posted January 09, 2006 03:54 PM
Coolness! This one seems to fit the music a bit more.hmm.. circus themed level? IP: 65.185.143.72 |
SANiK
Moderator
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posted January 09, 2006 06:59 PM
BE-U-TI-FUL!
IP: 71.250.112.130 |
Soda
unregistered
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posted January 09, 2006 07:55 PM
and we were left with bad carnival levels from Sonic 1 and Shadow the hedgehog. The level in the second video looks like it would have been a blast to play. Why were we denied this awesomeness!?IP: 205.188.116.138 |
SoNick
unregistered
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posted January 09, 2006 08:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Soda:
and we were left with bad carnival levels from Sonic 1 and Shadow the hedgehog. The level in the second video looks like it would have been a blast to play. Why were we denied this awesomeness!?
Actually...
Spring Yard isn't that bad (although I used to have nightmares about the rolling ball enemy when I was younger, hehe). In addition, Sonic 3 had Carnival Night (not that bad except for the barrel of pure evil!) and Sonic Rush had Night Carnival (Gah, annoying level design! Barely mistime a jump, and it's to the bottomless pit with you! The music's pretty cool, though). And I'm sure that I'm missing a level or two in this (admittedly small) list... But yeah, the level in the demo does look like it would be a lot of fun to play. IP: 68.103.4.252 |
egg
unregistered
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posted January 10, 2006 11:02 PM
The gameplay represented in those clips are really outdated. Even then, Sonic & Knuckles for Genesis far outclasses it. The first area is too small and oversaturated with obstacles that fire at seemingly random intervals. The second area seems quite bleak, and the course much too narrow.It could benefits from wider areas, slightly higher running speeds, and richer graphics. Fix that, and it would be amazing. I'm just saying. Sure, these demos are mysterious and exciting... everything about this project is like finding buried treasure. (thanks kurisu) But let's be a little honest. IP: 69.203.7.110 |
SANiK
Moderator
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posted January 11, 2006 03:47 AM
Egg, you obviously didn't read the whole thing before posting...The demos were designed to showcase an idea to be presented to SEGA
The actual game would have been nowhere near that due to the cramped spaces and cramped enemies Plus all you said, kurisu already acknowledged
IP: 71.250.112.130 |
ICEknight
unregistered
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posted January 11, 2006 07:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by egg:
But let's be a little honest.
We were already being honest with our feedback.IP: 62.175.18.164 |
egg
unregistered
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posted January 11, 2006 06:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SANiK:
Egg, you obviously didn't read the whole thing before posting...The demos were designed to showcase an idea to be presented to SEGA
The actual game would have been nowhere near that due to the cramped spaces and cramped enemies Plus all you said, kurisu already acknowledged
I knew that before I made my post. IP: 69.203.7.110 |
Exabyte256
unregistered
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posted January 12, 2006 01:36 AM
Wow...You actually get to control the characters rather than pounding the A button and watching them do everything for you, the enemies attack you instead of standing there waiting to die, loops work smoothly as part of the engine (or the animation anyway), the landscape is dynamic and moves around, and most of all, it's set on Mobius instead of a poor excuse for Earth! The demos are inferior to the likes of S&K, I agree with egg about that. But apart from the obvious graphics limitations, they're certainly superior to the current range of Sonic games. IP: 88.105.146.180 | |
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