posted January 12, 2006 08:28 AM              

"loops work smoothly as part of the engine (or the animation anyway)"

err what? Anyway, the loops are fine. And actually, there's no way from knowing from that demo whether or not it would be different or not. Now, I'm no game maker, but I can only imagine how obnoxious it would be to program full control on a 3D loop, when everyone is just gonna hold up and run through it anyway.

"it's set on Mobius instead of a poor excuse for Earth!"

You just called Mobius a poor excuse for Earth... and in a Sonic forum. Well jeez. ¬_¬

posted January 12, 2006 09:21 AM              

I didn't call Mobius a poor excuse for earth! Look, I'll even embolden the key words in the sentence...
"it's set on Mobius instead of a poor excuse for Earth!"

I meant it's good that X-Treme was set on Mobius, because the Earth storyline SonicTeam have set up really is one gigantic mess.

And the number of times I've fallen off loops into a bottomless pit in those 3D games because they didn't make them properly... they don't need to give the player anymore control than before, just make the loops work as they're supposed to. You should be able run around them without flaw.

posted January 13, 2006 04:36 AM              

Did you even consider that or did you just assume that Sonic somehow hopped on to Earth in the late 90's? If you look closely, the old games and new games are not that different in their environments. (cities, jungles, ruins, steel clouds, etc, they're always there) Nothing implies in the old games that Sonic and company aren't cartoon mascots living in an exaggerated take on Earth the whole time. There has been a human character (Eggman) from the beginning and many city levels before Sonic Adventure. The old levels were more quirky and surrealistic in nature but that is more relating to the technology available back then and really doesn't prove anything. New systems starting with Dreamcast allow Sonic games with richer, more realistic worlds. You decide if that is a curse or blessing.. but what planet the game takes place on is entirely up to the guys who wrote the plot.

posted January 13, 2006 06:38 AM              

Hey, I know, maybe someone could make a sequal to Comix Zone! Yeah, but instead of having it take place in a comic book lets have it happen on Earth! It's got nothing to do with anything and makes no sense why there are all these mutants roaming around suddenly for no reason at all and any civilians in the area will have absolutely no reaction to any of it but hey, it doesn't matter because Storylines were never part of next-gen computer game design!

posted January 13, 2006 08:03 AM              

The English names and explanations became popular because of he TV and comic series that based their stories on the very limited information in the US manuals.

you can find translations of the Japanese manuals here.

posted January 13, 2006 04:05 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keith Hemari:
It's like the infamous Dust Hill Zone picture from Sonic 2. That image was just a mockup, using graphics designed for the game.

---

posted January 14, 2006 05:08 PM            

egg... I'd like to address some of the comments and criticisms you have made:

1) The demos were designed to excite the team, the managers and executives to get the financial go-ahead to make the real game. It succeeded in doing just that.

2) Do the demos reveal footage of a finished game? No. The game hadn't even started yet!

3) Comparing these demos to finished games - or to games being produced 10 years later is ridiculous.

"Outdated gameplay?" lol ...There *was* no gameplay like it back then, silly pants!

The intended audience for these demos didn't give a squat whether gameplay was crowded or platforms were too narrow... the odds are they didn't even know about that - those were details the executives didn't concern themselves with. They wanted to see something that would take Sonic someplace new... they wanted dollar signs in their eyes.

Something else to consider is the time available to put these together. Imagine being given 2 weeks to complete each of those videos. Imagine you have no frame of reference - no Sonic ever explored this type of 3D world... you need to design what would happen in the demos, create all the assets, animate them, tweak them, etc. You need to consider some technical limitations that the (then) target platform had (including number of polys, anim frames, textures, HUD elements, etc.) I'm not sure if you've ever tried to do something like this, but believe me, it is a tremendous amount of work! Sure Sonic runs like a snail, pathways are narrow and it would most certainly be impossible to play without artificial aids and even then it wouldn't be much fun... that is part of the reason for creating a demo in the first place!

One more point: My choice was to "undersell" what we wanted the eventual game to look like. I generally dislike expectations and like to over-achieve whenever possible... and this was a situation where the mere fact that Sonic was 3D (albeit Virtua Fighter-looking) was almost "wow" enough to get the job done in that fateful meeting room.

Ultimately, these demos were simply exploring what could be done... and the result would inevitably be riddled with all sorts of problems - obvious or not - to discuss when attempting to make the actual game. The first 3D Sonic game wasn't magically going to fly out of someone's butt... it was going to take lots of discussions, testing, etc. - and one of the most beneficial forms of exploring the game was to visualize it. From that point, true "development" of the concept began...

posted January 14, 2006 06:14 PM            

The following is a scan of a crappy color printout of a digital image I have and will dig up - but in the meantime, feast your eyes on this radioactive mess - A demo image of Sonic in isometric! Keep in mind - 3D Blast wasn't even an itch in Sega's pants at this point - this image came before Sonic ever departed the side-scrolling realm.

EDIT: In retrospect, I can't confirm at this time whether this image came before any development of 3D Blast. I do know, however, that I did not see anything prior to creating this image. I'll have to find the original image's creation date shown in a post below then cross-reference with 3D Blast's development timeline.

Note the extremely creative background theme... more first jungle stuff

I especially love the Ding-Dong rings... any fatter and they could be discs! lol

posted January 14, 2006 10:59 PM              

I understood that these demos were merely demos and did not have any interactive elements, even if I missed the exact purpose of making them. (pitching to get the project started, as opposed to illustrating types of gameplay you wanted the game to have)

Mostly my comments were to contrast the overly positive responses, from people who also seemed to miss that the demos are not actually games, and inappropriately take that moment to vent on 21st century Sonic. I guess that doesn't sound like a reason to poop the demos, but at least I understood that they /were/ demos in the first place. I didn't dismiss your work dishonestly, I only attempted to envision what an ideal demo would look like given only graphical limitations. If others were going to critique the demo as if it was an actual game released today, I welcomed myself to do so as well. This is not out of disrespect for anyone, personally.

posted January 14, 2006 11:48 PM            

For egg...

"my comments were to contrast the overly positive responses..." You mean to stand out from the crowd and look smart?

"only attempted to envision what an ideal demo would look like." By cricitizing an apple for not being a vegetable?

My impression of the collective excitement about the demos was "oo that would have been cool." Who cares if someone thinks a game today stinks? That's someone's subjective right, isn't it? Does that make their opinion "inappropriate?"

"Oh, and you undersold the presentation." Fish much? It appears you feel your jabs prompted some excuse from me so I wouldn't look bad? lol ...it's the truth, man, as is everything I've shared here. I'm old and experienced enough to not worry about looking bad.

Come on, man. Let's talk about the game - not play one with each other.

posted January 15, 2006 10:14 AM              

kurisu:

"Who cares if someone thinks a game today stinks? That's someone's subjective right, isn't it? Does that make their opinion 'inappropriate?'"

In a forum topic that has nothing to do with it? ..You tell me.

"Fish much? It appears you feel your jabs prompted some excuse from me so I wouldn't look bad? lol ...it's the truth, man, as is everything I've shared here. I'm old and experienced enough to not worry about looking bad."

Likewise, I think you're misunderstand me a little. I don't see this as some sort of contest. I was merely asking a question, that being "Did you share an extra anecdote on account my post?" I guess I should have phrased it better.

posted January 16, 2006 03:05 PM              

My personal guess is just that it's a thing the American localizators thought up to preemptively answer kids' silly questions like "Hey, if Sonic is supposed to be on Earth, where does he live? Does he have a mail address? I've never seen any animal-people like Sonic at all in the world! What gives?"

I really wish some Sonic fans would let that whole "OMG MOBIUS ISN'T MOBIUS ITS EARTH O_O_O OMG" thing slide. Y'know, Duckburg doesn't really exist either, and I don't hear anyone make a fuss about that.

posted January 16, 2006 07:45 PM            

SANiK - This was an option in case we couldn't do the 3D... but I don't think this was for the Genesis... maybe for the 32X... can't recall at the moment.

Jason - I appreciate the compliments, but keep in mind this was one still image... to make a whole game and store the graphics in memory (say, for the Genesis) wouldn't have been possible to duplicate this - assuming there was more variety, etc. per level. This pic served as a way to explore whether it was even an option. One gameplay point that prevented us from pursuing this was the control issue... it's very hard to press a controller in the diagonal directions... that's an inherent flaw in this design. One might say, "well, just pretend 'up' is diagonally up-right..." or some such logic, but it's not an ideal solution.

Keith - I have no idea if anyone who worked on Sonic 3D Blast ever saw this... but imagine you hadn't seen this pic or Sonic 3D Blast... and you had an artist create a rendition of the Green Hill Zone in isometric... I'm pretty sure it would look at least a little like this

Soda - lol

H Hog - Hey, if Sonic is supposed to be on Earth, where does he live? Does he have a mail address? I've never seen any animal-people like Sonic at all in the world! What gives?

lol

posted January 16, 2006 08:44 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by kurisu:
I appreciate the compliments, but keep in mind this was one still image... to make a whole game and store the graphics in memory (say, for the Genesis) wouldn't have been possible to duplicate this - assuming there was more variety, etc. per level. This pic served as a way to explore whether it was even an option. One gameplay point that prevented us from pursuing this was the control issue... it's very hard to press a controller in the diagonal directions... that's an inherent flaw in this design. One might say, "well, just pretend 'up' is diagonally up-right..." or some such logic, but it's not an ideal solution.

---

posted January 16, 2006 09:01 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by kurisu:
Keith - I have no idea if anyone who worked on Sonic 3D Blast ever saw this... but imagine you hadn't seen this pic or Sonic 3D Blast... and you had an artist create a rendition of the Green Hill Zone in isometric... I'm pretty sure it would look at least a little like this

---

*nods* I figured. But it was a question that was bound to be asked by someone. I just got it out of the way, s'all XD

Cool demo. Neat idea too. using real 3D to do the pseudo 3D isometric.. might've been an interesting game.

posted January 16, 2006 10:31 PM            

Demo #2 = my favorite so far =O

posted January 18, 2006 02:29 PM            

Jason - Indeed Sonic 3D Blast did do its job... and it looked great (imo). But I don't think one can argue that playing a game that requires constant diagonal input is as easy or fun on a basic level as a game that requires constant horizontal/vertical input by the player. To conserve memory one can always cut... but what we were after was 3D and this just wasn't going to offer. In retrospect, if we'd known what we'd have to go through, perhaps this type of game would have been the route we would take.

Keith - *nods back* ...*nods back again after your nod* . Rinse and repeat.

SANiK - Yes and no... coding would have been easier, however with the memory limitations, the only way to provide bigger areas for more speed would have been to 1) reduce the size of sonic onscreen to make the environment bigger, 2) make the levels bigger or some Secret Sauce 3rd option. Level design can afford "more cramped" or "less cramped" depending on how it's laid out.

posted January 19, 2006 11:08 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by kurisu:
Here's the isometric demo image in its original form (though I blew it up x2 so I could actually see it on my monitor! lol):

[edited January 19, 2006 by kurisu]

---

Hmm.. is that sprite based on a 3D model? It looks distinctly different from the Sonic Xtreme Sonic model.

posted January 21, 2006 12:37 PM            

--------------

Sonic X-Treme polygon demos

Both of these test demos were created by Christian Senn sometime during 1995.

Senn took four weeks to prepare the demos for SEGA executives and Sonic Team. This was one of many hurdles that could make or break the project; if the demo didn't manage to impress the executives then it would have been terminated, and if it did impress, then it would mark the start of a long and arduous journey.

Understandably Senn didn't sleep much during the four week development, but it was the inspiration provided by Michael Kosaka's original game design and the music track 'Stardust Speedway-bad future' (from the Sonic the Hedgehog CD soundtrack) that gave him the creative energy to complete his task. In fact Senn was so inspired by the music that he decided to include it in both of the test demos. Senn produced both demos on his Amiga 3000 using Imagine 3.0 and DeluxePaint Animator. The demos weren't playable, both were merely pre-rendered animations.

At this particular time Sonic had never appeared in a truly 3D game before, and the game's 'pitch' was based on this premise. Senn set out to create a game that would have a visual appeal, a wow factor. In Senn's own words:

"The intended audience... wanted to see something that would take Sonic someplace new... they wanted dollar signs in their eyes. It was supposed to be playful, fun and colorful. Granted, all the 3D was flat-shaded and didn't/doesn't look that impressive, but I think the cleanliness and colors keep it charming in a simple way. Overall, it still shows some basics of Sonic moving around in 3D... The assumption was that if we could visualize the slower, more tedious gameplay, we could definitely have fast sections that went by in a blur..."

Demo 1

Senn created this demo in two halves. The first half was the animation of the level itself. Later he overlaid the HUD, for which every ring and second that past was manually animated.

"I'd already designed some enemies... and went ahead and modeled those in 3D using an Amiga 3000 and the software Imagine 3.0. I'd already modeled Sonic for use in a demo prior to this one (a bonus round design concept of Michael Kosaka's). The entire rendered scene was blocked out so it had a small view rectangle so that the rest of the space would be filled in with a HUD I'd design/draw later. I designed a simple 3D playground and planned a route for Sonic to run, coming up with environmental hazards (like the spike plate, the pumping platform, etc.) along the way. I had to tweak Sonic's orientation each frame, too. (oy) Since I was working with 8-bit (256 colors), I needed to have the 3D images from the Imagine renders to mesh with the 2D HUD I created in DeluxePaint Animator... so I limited the color output of the renders to something like 192... and used the remaining 64 or so colors to draw the HUD. Then I manually updated each frame of the HUD to match what was going on in the game window. I even updated the ring counter graphic and number every time Sonic ran over a ring!"

Demo 2

The second demo was designed to demonstrate some faster gameplay which had be absent in the first.

Senn's plan for the geometry of Sonic, the enemies and the background was to work with as few polygons as possible. This would serve as a basic technical test to analyze whether the eventual game could even be done on the target platform (32X). Following the 3D rendering process, Senn went over the demos touching up Sonic's low-polygon model using DeluxePaint Animator. In this demo the camera zooms in for a close up of Sonic at the end, and DeluxePaint Animator was used to touch him up.

"...You'll see the detail 'rez in'... and that's me cheating with 2D! The Sonic model stinks... but it's probably the most efficient use of polygons you'll ever see, baby! lol (that's me impersonating modesty) ...I built 3D models like I did 2D graphics, as efficiently as possible (learned that from some of the most amazing 2D artists at Cinemaware)... and for this demo, the fewer the overall polys, the faster I could work with the wireframes - and faster to render the flat-shaded output. BTW, another reason for the flat-shaded final output choice was to keep the look clean. Knowing that I would need to work with 256 colors, and knowing that the HUD was the only element I could control exactly how many colors and how they were used... I chose to not have shadows or shading. Honestly I think it reads better without them."

Conclusion

Both demos helped gain support by management to continue development of the project. But, Senn and the team had planned to use these demos not only for presentation outside the team, but to discuss within the team potential benefits and problems in their game plan.

"Ultimately, these demos were simply exploring what could be done... and the result would inevitably be riddled with all sorts of problems - obvious or not - to discuss when attempting to make the actual game. The first 3D Sonic game wasn't magically going to fly out of someone's butt... it was going to take lots of discussions, testing, etc. - and one of the most beneficial forms of exploring the game was to visualize it. From that point, true 'development' of the concept began..."

posted January 21, 2006 01:52 PM              

I’ve wrote up the information on the first two demos presented in this topic, to put up on the ‘Sonic Stadium’ fan site.

posted January 22, 2006 02:31 AM              

Yeah, so I put it up there to check that I hadn’t assumed too much, I new I might misinterpret some of the information given.
The conclusion was also a nice addition.

If ever I’m unsure of an article would it be alright to email you a copy to check?

Can you just tell me if these were the demos that Yuji Naka also saw, and said “Good lick” to you?

posted January 22, 2006 11:43 AM            

Psychobob - Chris, kurisu or my birth-given name Christian are all good. Either those or shoobydoobyJAWANG. ...and sure, you can email me to provide feedback.

And btw, proofread por favor! lol ... Naka-san never told me (or hopefully anyone at work) "Good LICK."

roflmao!!!

posted January 27, 2006 04:00 PM              

Chris (I can call you that?), that's a really nice design/theme for the title screen. I really like the way the logo stretches out and bounces ahead, with some nice seizure effects